“Anybody can be an innovator. Some of our youngest innovators have been teenagers. Some of our oldest have been in their 80s. And they have a great idea. They want to be part of a project that makes a difference. They want to have an impact. They get in there with their great ideas. And it’s amazing what comes out of these initiatives.” – Lt Col Jennifer “JJ” Snow, Chief Technology Officer for the United States Air Force AFWERX
为什么故事对创新过程很重要?哪些价值观可以灌输给分享故事的创新者?创新领导者如何激励创造者讲述和分享他们的成功和失败故事?
We speak with Lt Col Jennifer “JJ” Snow, Chief Technology Officer for the United States Air ForceAFWERX. AFWERX寻求与充满激情的创新者建立联系,他们将通过推进美国空军创造更美好的未来。JJ斯诺知道任何人都可以成为创新者,无论他们的年龄或背景如何。最好的创新故事散发出激情、远见和横切的影响。
Lt Col Jennifer “JJ” Snow is theAFWERXInnovation Officer for the U.S. Air Force, SAF-A8I, the Pentagon. She serves as the military representative for technology outreach and engagement bridging the gap between government and various technology communities to improve collaboration and communications, identify smart solutions to wicked problems and guide the development of future technology policy to benefit the US Air Force, Department of Defense, Interagency and Allied partners.
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这一集是由不计其数的内容的创新故事乐动体育足球乐动体育266.Increase buy in for your best ideas in this immersive and interactive, story-driven experience. Where your teams refine storytelling techniques for their latest projects, prototypes and pitches—and get inspired by 25 epic examples of impactful innovation stories. Learn more at//www.isandstone.com/innovationstorytelling乐动体育266training-2/.
凯蒂:[00:00:04]欢迎来到不为人知的创新故事,在这里,我们放大了不为人知的洞察力、影响力和创新故事。以不为人知的内容为动力。我是你的主人,凯蒂·特劳斯·泰勒。我们今天的客人是J.J.斯诺。她是美国空军AFWERX的首席技术官。她还是导师项目的首席运营官,该乐动体育足球项目旨在阐明导师的好处。她是威斯康星大学麦迪逊分校的荣誉助理研究员。她是乔治敦大学的生物安全研究员。她发表了许多文章。她领导过许多创新项目,其中一个,你可能还记得,不久前我们在这个播客上做了专题报道,那就是M.V.M项目。一组来自世界各地的物理学家和工程师共同设计了一个简化的COVID-19呼吸机系统。他们在大约一个月内完成了这项工作,并在相当长的时间内通过了FDA的批准,这部分要归功于JJ的领导和协调。我们非常感谢你再次上播客,JJ。谢谢你能来。
JJ:[00:01:13]Katie, thanks so much. I’m delighted. I’m a big fan of Untold Stories and everything you guys are doing to highlight innovation, not just here in the U.S., but globally as well. So really, really excited to talk with you today.
凯蒂:[00:01:27]谢谢你!所以你能告诉我们一点关于我nnovation as it exists inside the Air Force?
JJ:[00:01:33]Sure, I’d be delighted to. We have so many interesting initiatives right now. In fact, if you visit our AFWERX website, you will see all of the upcoming challenges and it touches on a diverse array of topics. In fact, every week, every day is different. We actually have been looking at a number of space challenges. We have the base of the future coming up, which is focused on how do we create modern, resilient bases and this was in my – I’m looking at what happened to Tyndall Air Force base after a hurricane and figuring out how could we create a base that can survive a natural disaster. Keep people that are there safe during the hurricane and then allow the base to actually respond to help the local area and the public in the surrounding areas of the state. And so looking at these new technologies, we’ve reached out to so many interesting innovators. These are hackers and makers. These are academics. These are industry professionals, small businesses up on to the corporations. And it’s global. So we have really, really neat contacts coming in all the time, all kinds of interesting ideas that they’re bringing to bear so that we can figure out that next set of solutions, that next generation of innovation.
凯蒂:[00:02:53]对。你和这么多合伙人一起工作。所以在J.J.刚才提到的基础上,你可以去AFWERX。那是一个F W E R X A F。去探索一下这个地方。这真是一个很棒的网站。但是你接触到空军,你接触到工业界,学术界,当然,你也有创新中心。对我来说,AFWERX引发的倡议数量和故事数量令人难以置信。
JJ:[00:03:20]对。对。嗯,我们是热情的说书人。如果你在不同的活动、挑战、拓展活动或我们的社交活动中遇到我们的任何一个团队,你将坐在前排观看我们讲述的激励人们成为创新者的故事。任何人都可以成为创新者。没关系。我们一些最年轻的创新者都是青少年。我们的一些老人已经80多岁了。他们有个好主意。他们想成为一个与众不同的项目的一部分。他们想产生影响。所以他们加入我们的创新中心,这些公共开放空间。他们带着他们伟大的想法进入那里。这些举措所产生的效果令人惊讶。我每天都被那些有着我从未想过的想法的聪明人所鼓舞。
凯蒂:[00:04:08]Oh, same here. And I think the fact that you make time as an organization and especially a public entity to explain those stories and to share them, you even call them innovation stories on your site, which is exciting for us, of course, because we’re trying to get more awareness about the power of storytelling in innovation. But that’s an important lesson, I think. So many regions and public leaders, when we take the time to create an identity around the work that we’re doing, through storytelling, I think that really helps accelerate the pace of innovation. Especially, I would imagine, in terms of building relationships with academia and industry and other partners and being able to also tell those stories in a way that speaks to the individual airmen and airwomen and being able to kind of inspire them to see themselves as innovators, right?
JJ:[00:05:04]确切地。确切地。这个故事的价值在于:当你讲述一个故事时,你让它变得有形,你让它变得可信。你允许人们把他们自己的故事带进来,并与你正在构建的东西相互连接。所以这是一个非常神奇的挂毯,它开始围绕一个项目开发,并开始围绕我们要寻找的最初故事。事实上,我们与伊拉克人合作了一项非常伟大的倡议。在这种特殊情况下,我们专门处理了一些移民安置问题。叛乱分子一直在进屋,在已建新房的墙壁上放置简易爆炸装置。当人们搬进来的时候,他们受伤了。他们被杀了。我们没有足够的机器人或狗每天通过,以确保这些新家是安全的。所以我们立即联系了我们的网络,说,听着,我们真的想知道如何经济实惠地检测是否有人在太空中放置了简易爆炸装置。所以我们让这些人都出来了。如果这真的是一个SOFWERX在当时,但这是一个联合倡议,因为所有的服务都参与和许多跨机构的合作伙伴和我们的盟国伙伴肯定是一个大问题,因为我们试图帮助伊拉克人站起来,把他们的国家回来,并得到一个新的开始。所以我永远不会忘记这个。我们都在集思广益,人们在墙上贴胶粘物。后面有一个非常安静的年轻人简单地说,“泡泡。”我们都转过身来看看。我在想,这是他的昵称还是一个想法还是…?所以我们暂停一下。他说,“泡泡,我们可以用泡泡来做。”他的想法是制造一种泡泡枪,可以在房间里吹泡泡,并触发这些被动红外设备。很轻便,很便宜。我们想,嗯,也许,我不知道。所以我们买了几台泡泡派对机,还买了一些遥控车。我的天哪,如果它不起作用,你可以用不到20美元的价格做遥控车,上面还有一个气泡机。所有这些气泡都在旋转,运动会被被动红外探测到。如果房子里有装置,它会爆炸。没有人受伤。没有动物受伤。我们能够很快很容易地做到这一点。这就是我所说的创新类型。我们谁也想不到。但他很有创意地提出了这个想法,并说,好吧,我在过去见过这种情况。假设和假设是从最初的故事开始的。乐动体育娱乐
凯蒂:[00:07:56]这是惊人的。这是一个单独的空气ce member who came up with that idea, sort of a frontline member?
JJ:[00:08:02]这是个平民。这是一个平民进入我们的设施。所以我们所有的设施都是公共设施。任何人只要有主意都可以进来和我们谈谈。他们可以带来一个想法并展示出来,他们可以成为我们挑战的一部分。他们可以讲述自己的故事,告诉我们,嘿,这是一个你需要知道的故事。我想我能帮上忙。在某些情况下,他们发现了我们还没有考虑过的问题。但他们从一个全新的角度来看,这个故事有助于让其他人了解它。我们聚在一起。但这只是一个年轻人决定,嘿,我会出现,帮助改变。
凯蒂:(00:08:40)Was that part of an innovation challenge or was it sort of an open, you know, event of some kind?
JJ:[00:08:46]是的。这是一个创新的挑战。这一点特别关注:我们如何帮助伊拉克人夺回他们的国家?我们如何帮助他们稳定下来?我们如何帮助他们做各种各样的事情?不管是重建基础设施,还是安全行动,都是其中的一部分,或者是重建战后受灾最严重的地区。那是什么样子的?我们怎样才能帮助他们提高,这样你就可以充分利用房间里所有的想法。而且价格实惠。很快。很聪明。很有创意。我们可以随时申请。这就是这些活动的目的。
凯蒂:[00:09:34]Something that I’m hearing, and the way that you structure these challenges, is there’s a clear, overarching storyline. You know, this is the mission. This is the overall vision we need to get to a world where the Iraqis have a stable and safe community. And so having that at the forefront of any kind of innovation challenge and then breaking it down into more specific, you know, areas where that could be technical or it could be communal, there could be so many different solutions that emerge from that. Can you tell us a little bit more about your process of storytelling around your challenges?
JJ:[00:10:09]当然。这也取决于挑战,因为当你在编故事的时候,你在编故事的目的是想揭示你的英雄的追求是什么,对吧?背后的“为什么”。我们为什么要这样做?这就是“为什么”会激励某些拥有特定技能的人加入的原因。你必须把故事写对,因为他们想为一个有着相似价值观和道德观的故事做贡献,而且是在他们热衷的领域。另一个很好的例子是我们在联合军种中又做了一次。这叫做远程咨询协助。这一特殊能力是由海军研究生院开发的。这是一种远程通信能力,使我们的盟国伙伴或美国的特种作战部队或安全部队能够向在地面遇到叛乱部队或敌军的伊拉克部队提供建议。所以在那一点上,他们的部队在冲突中,你知道,他们接触,他们实际上遇到了敌人的力量。他们正在回电寻求帮助。面对这一挑战,我们知道这是一个开源体系结构,已经构建并发送到了低端。但我们不知道所有的漏洞在哪里。所以我们有几个人。联系我们说,看,我们知道你有一个惊人的道德黑客网络,你正在与之合作。你能不能问问他们能不能看看这个,帮个忙?我们做到了。我们告诉他们这个故事,我们告诉他们我们是如何使用这个设备来帮助、培训和交流的。真是不可思议。我们有七个黑客回来了。他们大约48小时后回来。他们发现了所有的漏洞。他们已经确定了修复漏洞和强化系统的所有方法。他们免费这么做是因为他们想有所作为,拯救生命,改善安全,帮助人们。他们看到了我们的努乐动体育娱乐力。我们要讲的故事。乐动体育266
凯蒂:[00:12:18]Yes. Yes.
JJ:[00:12:20]也就是说,我们在讲述伊拉克未来的故事。这是一个安全的伊拉克。这是一个安全的伊拉克。这是一个有着积极未来的地方,我们正努力朝着这个方向发展。所以这就是他们的重点。我们怎样才能帮助伊拉克人归还他们的国家?让它安全,让它安全,让他们开始建设积极的未来。而这个故事的这一部分正是激励他们去帮助的原因。
凯蒂:[00:12:48]太不可思议了。所以你…作为阿富克斯的领导者…。。很明显,你总是在倾听这些故事,收集它们,然后重新分享它们。你能?我很想听听你对讲故事和分享故事如何帮助塑造创新文化的看法。
JJ:[00:13:06]哦,天哪。这是个很好的问题。听到这么多不同的声音。如果你讲的故事是对的。你鼓励人们站出来参与。所以我认为我们在空军做得非常非常好的一件事,我在很多作品模型中看到了这一点,在海军行动中也看到了这一点,我们正在打开我们的大门,向大家展示他们可以成为这个故事的一部分。而这个故事就是围绕着这个故事展开的。产生积极的影响。所以我经常讲的一个故事是,如果我们对我们的技术如何分层,如何实现我们的技术很聪明,最后,我们可以推动领导层和决策者做出积极的决策,从冲突决策转向外交解决方案,从可能导致战争的动态解决方案。如果我们聪明的话,我们有能力通过讲故事来改变我们之间的关系,减少冲突。这是我们所做的很多工作所固有的。因为如果你有防止战争或冲突的工具,你就永远不必去那里,得到我们在军队中所做的如此重要的一部分。很多人没有意识到这一点。没人想部署。没人想去打仗。这真是一次可怕的经历。当你接触到这些的时候,你就会明白,嘿,如果我们以后不必这么做,那我们就别做了。让我们找到有助于防止这种情况发生的技术。这就是我们一直围绕的故事之一,很多创新者被吸引,因为他们也对此充满热情。他们想避免痛苦。他们希望建立一个积极的未来,让我们共同创造一个与众不同的未来。每个人都想看到战争的结束。每个人都希望看到冲突的结束和工具,这些工具将使我们能够进行积极的讨论,有助于缓解未来任何类型的冲突或战争。所以我们什么时候,什么地方可以集中精力。不是所有的案子都允许我们这么做。我们仍然从事战争和维护国家安全的工作。所以这里还有第二个故事情节,它真正着眼于技术,使我们能够以尽可能低的伤亡率谨慎地进行区别对待的战争。我们真的在考虑限制对我们合作的社会和人口的影响。这是另一个同样激励人们的故事。还有科学。很多来参加我们活动的人都是超级科幻迷。当他们来到我们的空间,你知道,他们长大了。他们喜欢学习。他们喜欢被挑战。他们喜欢那些邪恶的问题。他们带着想法来到太空,他们有一个他们想让我们听到的故事。他们在讲那些故事。这也激励了这个领域的每个人。所以他们带着他们自己的英雄的任务进来,你知道,为什么他们被这个特定的问题所激励?同时,他们也在告诉我们一个相关的故事。他们在给我们讲一个故事,你知道,这就是他们的场景。这是他们的口头禅。这是一个使解决方案或技术,有形的,熟悉的,可访问的叙述。这有助于在座的每个人理解它的重要性,以及他们如何相信它能帮助解决他们关心的问题。然后是谁?他们是谁?当有人走进房间,无论他们来自空军、海军、陆军、海军陆战队或海岸警卫队,或者他们是机构间合作伙伴或盟军合作伙伴,或者他们是道德黑客,他们是创造者,他们是学者。他们是来改变现状的公众。他们是谁?他们是一个团队吗?什么?他们为什么对此充满热情?他们演得好吗?他们谦虚吗?他们是否专注于尽最大努力解决他们关心的问题?这种激情转化为故事的成功。然后故事是你开始的,故事是你一路走到成功的结局。这正是我们围绕这些中心努力培育和建设的。
凯蒂:[00:18:07]It’s absolutely incredible the way that, you know, you’ve spoken so beautifully to the ways in which story defines the motivation behind what we do, how it can define and help connect us with others, so you mentioned relatability, and that’s so critical to being able to say here’s who I am, here’s the context that I bring to the table and why I care about this. OK. Now that we’re connected, let’s team up. Let’s collaborate and let’s solve together. I think that’s – those are such powerful. And you made so many excellent points in that description of culture and how you build it. One of the things I also am so respectful about with AFWERX is the actual strategies you’re using to bring stories to life and to help pull people together to innovate together. You have spark tank. You have spark cells. You have the ideation platform. You have the Squadron Innovation Fund. There are obviously there are SBIRs and STTRs. If you’re unfamiliar with those, you should definitely – if you’re listening to this podcast, check them out. They are government grants to solve innovation challenges. And one of the things that just really stood out to me is Spark Tank. Could you tell me a little bit about that?
JJ:[00:19:21]所以这实际上是一个超冷计划。在这种情况下,它就像一个鲨鱼缸。但我们要做的是激励人们拿出他们的解决方案,并将其应用到我们空军一直在努力解决的一个具体的邪恶问题上。这可能是我们的飞行员,也可能是一个行业合作伙伴或初创企业,个人创新者,一组创新者。当他们进入那个空间,我们就在玩鲨鱼。在这种情况下,我们是…或者是火花。我们试图让他们清楚地表达并谈论他们试图提出的东西。怎样。他们想解决什么问题?在本例中,我们真正关注四个关键领域。我们真的在看,在前面,你知道,为什么或如何你的技术英雄,将拯救我的一天,从任何邪恶的问题,我正在处理?它将如何帮助我的客户?为什么它比其他类似的解决方案更好、更智能、更快、更独特?是什么让它脱颖而出?所以我们正试着去了解这个故事。同时,我们也在努力让他们把它变成一场对话。我做了很多简报。我们想听听这个故事,你知道,让他们在我们面前开始。作为一名飞行员,他们在解决什么问题?作为一个创新者或者一个普通公民,他们在解决什么样的问题,他们认为它也适用于另一个问题或者多个问题?我们希望他们告诉我们,不是简单地告诉我们,而是告诉我们那个故事,那个使解决方案的对话,再一次,是个人的。这是相对的。那种激情闪耀着光芒。当你看到激情闪耀时,当你看到人们真的,真的专注于有所作为,他们真的想知道,能不能做点什么……这是可以做到的,还是我们已经看到可以做到的。下面是我们下一步可以做的。这足以说明问题。这是一个很好的基础,就像一个故事的基石,意味着你正朝着一个能取得巨大成功的技术前进。然后我们也鼓励他们真正保持大局。有时我们有很多人进来,他们真的想深入研究技术规格。那很危险。如果你想在火花箱里试着这么做,那就太好了。你只有那么多时间来做演讲。你可能会迷失在细节中。而那个人,那个讲故事的人正试图把太多的细节插进去。如果他们陷入困境,他们可能会失去观众。如果他们失去了听众,他们可能会错过一个能真正解决问题的解决方案。所以我们真的想让他们在上台之前就考虑这个问题。最后一部分是让它可视化。不管是通过文字还是开发,哦,还是图像使这项技术,这是一个解决方案,每个人都可以访问。你可以整天跟我讲技术。我能读懂。但直到我真正看到它,我明白它是如何工作的,我明白它是如何解决一个我关心的问题…我可能不会,你知道,它可能会迷失在翻译,如果这么多次我看到公司进来,没有做到这一点。这通常是我给他们的反馈。让它成为一个故事。你的叙述是什么?它对我来说是如何熟悉和相关的?做那个演示,做那个图像,帮我弄到它。帮助我的观众得到它,因为不是每个观众都会成为技术专家。事实上,很多人可能不会。他们有问题。他们需要一个解决方案。他们不知道怎么去那里。然后是技术部分,如果他们得到太多的细节,他们肯定会迷路。所以我给你们举一个很好的例子,这个星期刚刚发生的,事实上,昨天。我们进行了一次虚拟的科技之旅,我们联系了华盛顿州。这是一个很好的机会,可以看到很多公司。大多数人都做了一个PowerPoint简报,没关系。太棒了,有一些照片。一家公司在他们的六自由度多材料三维打印机前摆出了姿势,这是一个巨大的机械臂,并向我们展示了它的视频。所以他们展示了视频。哇,真是太棒了。我马上就明白了。网上的每个人都对此感到兴奋,因为你看到了它的实际应用。这个故事变得有形、可信。突然,人们就站在了一条线上。所有的技术侦察员都很兴奋,因为他们可以看到如何将其应用到不同的领域和他们面临的不同问题中。所以这些都是我们非常欣赏的关键的讲故事技巧,你知道,当人们站在我们前面的时候,我们会看到这些技巧。一旦他们做到了这一点,那就是帮助他们到达火花箱的顶端,并在最后进入赢家的圈子,因为他们已经展示了这四个不同的领域。
凯蒂:[00:24:55]And can you tell me a little bit more about what happens after that point? So in ongoing relationships with industry or startups, how does storytelling change in that part of the relationship as opposed to trying to get that attention and trying to make sure that your mission and your story is clear and that you’re sort of bringing it to life to make people understand without being too in the weeds. So that’s so critical in the beginning of the relationship to really get that attention and to start off on the right foot. But what about after the relationship is really settled at that point and you’re already, you know, say a startup is working directly with AFWERX or the Air Force at that point.
JJ:[00:25:37]So this is where the story gets really exciting because now we’ve matched them with a specific customer. In this case, it’s usually one of our Air Force bases. It might be a specific team or director. It might be with Air Force research labs or Air Force materials command. In this case, they’re now iterating on their solution alongside a customer that has a problem. They believe that this particular solution is the answer for. This is what gets really, really exciting, because you’re in the field, you’re testing this capability out and you’re showcasing that yes, in fact, it can do X, Y and Z over know it can do A, B, but not C or it does all of them. And now we think we can take it to the next level with a bit more funding. That piece is instrumental in taking the story, the initial story, that got them the attention and got them the partnership with the military or government partner and really catapulting it forward towards “OK, here are the different problems that this specific solution can now tackle.” And so instead of having one story that’s really focused on one topic or maybe three topics, when they come in the door, they’re now telling a story that has a crosscutting impact. This is a story about solving problems across spaces. This is a story about how they can move very quickly to provide impact today in a year, sometimes in 18 months, and how they intend to translate that story into action. That’s the next step. And once that happens, things really start to get exciting.
凯蒂:[00:27:23]是的,当然。我,再一次,我只是…在这一点上,我脸上有最大的笑容,所以我道歉。我几乎失去了我的思路,只是因为我对你的运作方式和AFWERX吸引人们的方式以及你真正愿意分享工作的方式感到兴奋。我非常感谢你们为领导这项工作所做的一切,感谢所有参与其中的人,感谢所有接触过这些挑战并帮助解决问题的人。我只是被它迷住了。
JJ:[00:27:55]Thank you!
凯蒂:[00:27:55]My apologies for this moment where I’m kind of geeking out.
JJ:[00:28:00]都是爱。你可以和我们的任何一个队员交谈。所有人都非常棒。我喜欢每天看到阿富克斯团队所做的工作而感到谦卑。他们只是,不管他们是否在承包,他们是否在工作的火花罐,如果他们在工作的阿富克斯挑战。不管他们坐在哪里。我们有一个令人惊叹的团队,我很高兴能成为其中的一员,并且能够做出贡献,所以我也每天都会出去玩。所以我理解你的热情。
凯蒂:[00:28:33]Absolutely. And so again, you can visit the AFWERX website. Definitely follow JJ Snow on LinkedIn. She’s constantly sharing innovation stories. And it’s wonderful to see your leadership in this space. JJ, is there any other piece of advice you’d like to leave for innovators as they aim to solve big challenges and work together?
JJ:[00:28:56]Yes, yes. Yes, definitely. Always seek ways to inspire that creativity. That was something that you really, really struck me because I’ve had multiple people ask this. How do you stay creative? And so it’s something that I’m really passionate about. And one of the things I will do is I will constantly challenge the team that I’m working with to learn. Keep learning. Expose yourself to new ideas, new ways of thinking, and really push them to develop their passions outside of work. Too many people focus just on what’s happening in the workspace. No, no, no. Have those deep hobbies, you know, try new things out. You know, it could be art, it could be music, painting, poetry, science, game theory, different types of sports… You know, get out there and try something new that really pushes you. You push your comfort zone, helps you to see things in a new way. I try to bring in people that think very differently. We’ve had some amazing success with bringing in our ethical hackers. We’ve had some amazing success with various sci fi artists and authors and get them to understand, you know, the different challenges that exist out there around innovation, ethics, philosophy, cultural challenges, how to innovate in a resource-constrained environment. I learned that from Secretary Geurts when he was down at SOFWERX he limited how much money we had around a project because he did not want us to buy a solution. He wanted us to think about how to find a solution and get there smartly. I love that. I absolutely love that. So that would be… That would be the biggest piece of advice that I have if people are seeking to inspire creativity among their team. You know, reach out and challenge yourself in these areas. And also look for other storytellers, people that are mentors that are doing this well already and read about them. Watch videos. I know online. I think the Disney Gallery now has some really great video talks around tech and talent and the different types of creativity involved in bringing projects to life. I’m a huge fan for Dave Filoni. Also, you know, Rich Sheridan is a friend over at Menlo Innovations, I’m reading through one of his books right now, Joy, Inc.. If you have a chance to take a look. Because he is an amazing storyteller and you can learn so much about how to craft your stories to get other people excited and help them craft their story. So that’s – that would be my last piece of advice today.
凯蒂:[00:31:41]I can’t think of a better way for us to go out into the world after listening to this. JJ, thank you so much. I’m so inspired. May all of us be more creative and more proactive after this conversation. Thank you, JJ, for being here.
JJ:[00:31:56]Thanks so much for having me today. I am just a huge fan, so I’m looking forward to innovating in future collaborations with the Untold Story team.
凯蒂:[00:32:05]非常感谢你,JJ。彼此彼此。
JJ:[00:32:07]Thanks.
凯蒂:[00:32:10]感谢收听本周的节目。一定要在社交媒体上关注我们,并在对话中加入你的声音。你可以找到我们在数不清的内容。乐动体育足球
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Comments1
谁能成为创新者是没有限制的!真正的关键是我们是否对各种可能性持开放态度。这是拥抱创新的关键。